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Post by chiakimagoto on Jun 24, 2018 8:11:22 GMT -8
Amina chan, when i read your tumblr post, i dreaded that you were right. My shipping heart just doesn't want to let go. But when i think about them being together, it doesn't feel good. Like Biribiri chan said, i feel there is a rift between them at the moment. Ofcourse Taichi still has some undone apology hanging in the air between him and Chihaya, but most of all i feel Chihaya has to do the work if she wants to catch the guy she loves now. I still hope that is Taichi. But i have no idea how it could be written to make it feel "real". That Chihaya really loves him with all her heart.
I'm so torn..........cause i also really badly want him to beat Arata. Arata's loss would be a big surprise to everyone, including Chihaya; (If it was me, Arata would just return to Fukui after losing, go to Uni there, make a karuta club and marry Yuu, lol. This is my silly shipper heart wanting Arata out of the way!) Like you Stilldoll chan, i just can't idolize their 3some.....ok be it if they will always be friends.....that's allright. I just want Taichi to be happy, i don't want to feel bad at the end of this manga. Suetsugu san has always given much importance to the friendship/rivality of the 3 main leads. So i guess that will go on till the end. Like in a timeskip, them still taking part in the karuta community and thus always crossing eachother.
Stilldoll chan, those flowers are way to powerful, for just a "juicy" addition.....in Tokyo Ghoul they also pop up with a very powerful dark desperate meaning of loss. These are not the easy going flowers like daisies or peonies or cosmos....I don't want to be the party pooper, but i just can't ignore this.
Remember this is JOSEI, and it might not end in bubbly romance, like a shoujo....
About Sudo, i think he sort of disrespects Suou. The whole secretive stuff around Suou's recordings, and his desire to beat him in a very arrogant, jealous manner seems a not very healthy sympathetic way of seeing a person. I really think that Taichi and maybe Shinobu are the only ones who have come close to seeing who Suou really is, and accepting him for what he is. The whole karuta community makes me seethe when they look down on Suou like that!
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Post by Anon-1 on Jun 24, 2018 8:46:33 GMT -8
The funny thing about Sou's karuta situation was that... those oldies from karuta society doesn't think he deserved to become a Meijin and wanted him out whilst those younger karuta players doesn't think so. Instead of thinking that Sou doesn't deserved that title they just blame themselves for being too weak leaving him all alone at the top. And those who thought he don't deserved it, ended up changing their minds after having a match with him or having a chance to get to know him.
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Post by Amina on Jun 24, 2018 8:57:41 GMT -8
I don't demonize or hate any character in the manga, I can't really grasp the concept of hating a fictional character in general, to be honest. I still stand by my POV though Chiaki, sigh, I don't know. I'm not a Taichi-Chihaya anti, but I really don't see any point in them currently honestly speaking - imagine Chihaya expresses some kind of romantic affection towards Taichi in the next chapters. I personally don't feel even slightest excitement or whatever... I think there was a chance to develop them naturally and realistically even after Chihaya's rejection, but that chance is gone or mangaka is being overly ambiguous with her moves to the point that it loses the whole appeal. Either way, I'm not interested anymore and it doesn't really move me... Actually what really starts to annoy me is the way Chihaya is being portrayed as a damsel in distress and Taichi has to pull her together - again and again. If he is really showing her the card to demonstrate that he is still fighting (I do think that's what happened on the surface of all the symbolism), then ugh... She already led her team on the championship, why can't she have this new independence be developed further? Why must she depend on Taichi again? If mangaka uses this trope again I'm gonna hate that...
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Post by chiakimagoto on Jun 24, 2018 10:28:19 GMT -8
I get where you are coming from when it comes to Taichi and Chihaya being together.....i also feel a bit uncomfy with it and when it comes to the romance in a whole....looks the momentum expired for both couples btw....it's too bad cause if there was someone passionate in the love section it definitely was Taichi. I just can't feel anything when it comes to Chiharata.....Arata was just too neglected in the story for me to feel anything much for him. I guess there must be some sort of time skip or whatever. Did Suetsugu san actually make the romance turn sour?
I don't know what is going on exactly in chap 200, when he holds that card, looks a bit like that, playing an individual game, even if a teammate is around...calling out for her to pay attention. I don't really feel like she is a damsel in distress, but since we don't have the scan, i'm not sure what to think.
I guess i'll just sit back and watch....for now the boys match is what is exciting.....and the rest we'll see what Sensei has up her sleeve....
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Post by guest1 on Jun 24, 2018 15:43:58 GMT -8
wow @ some people. i don't think anyone here actually think suo as evil. the problem with him is that he's disinterested in karuta and it takes not only skill but attitude/passion to the game as well to be at the top.
him as the meijin is an insult to those who are actually passionate about karuta from the bottom of their hearts.
he messes with his opponent making them want to quit karuta. fixing his scores with queen match scores to have fun. don't defend this side of him.
his holding dear by not holding dear concept is also flawed. do some people really think it's good for him to be lone wolf and refuse to go home for years? yes he does care about her but at this point he's just running away.
tldr suo is not evil but that doesn't mean he doesn't do mistake or anything bad.
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Post by taichi4life on Jun 24, 2018 17:56:46 GMT -8
Amina is the type who cast aside character when they are no longer potrayed as strong. Characters are not supposed to be convenient to the idea of your liking. Don't force your ideals on characters and cast them aside when they didn't live up to what's on your mind, it's stupid. Let's just hope you don't cast aside Taichi if he were to regress in some way or even lose the match.
Do people seriously expect the characters to do no mistakes during matches? That would only make the outcomes more predictable as well as giving the opponents less time to shine. One sided match wouldn't benefit the opponents especially at this stage since it would only make their efforts look useless. There're TWO people in individual matches and developing BOTH is necessary even if you don't care about the opponents. Don't be selfish.
Some people criticising the characters that don't get proper development and call them sucks or meh when in reality their character development has been forsaken, partly for the sake of Taichi's development. Our favorite character got more development thanks to them.
The author focus more on developing Taichi's character to the point of ignoring the development for some characters. Am I wrong? Engrave in your mind that it's not characters fault for not getting proper development, they're just fictional after all.
Can I talk about how pessimistic some people here as well? Stop bringing negativity into this thread, it's unsettling.
Sorry for being harsh, but I feel like I really need to talk about this since I really dislike this side of our community.
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Post by biribirichan on Jun 24, 2018 17:59:44 GMT -8
@still doll: Haha! YES!! You’re absolutely right. I just remembered that it was Poem 48 that Chihaya quoted, where the rocks were broken by the waves, and Chihaya saying she’s always crashing into Taichi and smashing his feeling. As the waves power broke the rock, I assumed Chihaya was the waves that broke Taichi. But she clearly states that she was the rock! Lol, I guess this is the gap between science and literature haha Sorry for the confusion! This is the chapter (you have to scroll down a bit where that scene happens) And here’s the poem: Like a driven wave, Dashed by fierce winds on a rock, So am I: alone And crushed upon the shore, Remembering what has been. -- So now, I’m wondering does this change the interpretation of the poem 18? Taichi is the wave? But what of the pine trees in the shore? -- I noticed a lot of people saying that Taichi doesn't love karuta - I don't really think that's the case. There are so many instances in the manga where you can tell he truly loves it! The very first time, when Chihaya becomes class A, he looks through the glass with such longing, and says "Is that fun Chihaya, was it fun because you were playing with us?" Then when he brings in Komano (the first time he won with Chihaya with upside down karuta), there is so much joy in his face, and he tells Komano how exhilarating it is when one finally gets to win. Those chapters where he is playing with Suo, he looked at peace and truly playing his own karuta. His tears with Harada sensei, when he admits he wants to go to the place where Arata and Chihaya are - does this not speak of love and a desire to become Meijin? The place where Arata and Chihaya are is the place of love and passion for karuta and the desire to be Meijin. And just because Sudo says something, doesn't necessarily mean its true. You can see that Sudo was quite consumed by his own feelings of hatred in the match. In the same way, just because Suo says he's not a good teacher, doesn't mean he actually is one. IMO, I think he is the one who truly understood Taichi (and vice versa) and brought his hidden potential out. Many times throughout the manga, what people have said (like how Harada ended up eating humble pie with Suo) have later been disproved. I think Taichi getting to play the Meijin (regardless of whether Suo will be beaten or not) will be a fitting end to all the hard work and perseverance Taichi has put in throughout the manga. "You can't beat talent, even if you spent your whole youth on it?" "Well try first and then say it."
@jolly-Kyriem : Loved your spider lily interpretation!
@taichi4life (guest): I'm not sure what you are talking about. Most of the discussions I've read so far here have been very civil and engaging. People are free in our forums to discuss/criticize/be optimistic/be pessimistic in our forums, as long as they are polite. This has been our philosophy in MF and MAL and here as well. Your post was the only one here that I felt was borderline rude. Please don't attack members for their views. Amina chan has been a very thoughtful contributor to our forums for a long time, and I for one really appreciate all the work she puts in into analyzing the characters and poems. Everyone is welcome here, but please do be polite.
As for Taichi getting more screen time at the cost of other people's development - I respect your views, but personally for myself it makes an uneven story. I would have liked Chihaya to get a lot more development as the main heroine of our manga.
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Post by virane on Jun 24, 2018 18:47:49 GMT -8
Karuta players’ views on Suo mostly gets on my nerves tbh. I can understand them but if a person is stronger than you then he is stronger than you, he doesn’t have to love the game or the community. If you’re so sick of a player like him being at the top then beat him. They can feel like that but they have no right to behave like that imo. It’s plain hypocritical. Even some of my faves (Harada and Chihaya) disappointed me with their attitude towards him. It was realistic and made for a good story so all is good I guess. But Chihaya’s U turn from: “I can’t feel like that at the Omi Jingu” to “Why aren’t I a boy?!” LOL
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Post by chiakimagoto on Jun 24, 2018 19:04:49 GMT -8
Taichi4life, i don't know what you're talking about either. We have always felt free to be "optimistic" or "pessimistic" in a free but polite way.....we always have expressed our opinions.....i'm not sure whar you are calling "pessimistic" in the first place? What unsettled you? Anyway lets just keep the discussions going in a good way......😌 even if we don't always agree....this is actually what keeps the discussions alive. This has always been a small group, for the sake of finding our members with the MAL down, looks like others have found us too.....feel welcome everyone but i guess we're a bunch of otaku's(sorry my dear friends, take this second degree) and we've been at this for at least, 5 years already, lol😅.
I can't help but find that the development for Chihaya has been left behind for the sake of the outcome of the love triangle. Her thoughts and actions have been carefully hidden to not give us hardly any upper on what's truely going on with her......this also has made her character a bit flat. Suetsugu san might make this up near the end but she shouldn't wait too long imo. I think the poll probably gave her a hint as well......i mean the heroine actually fell to a little 3rd place....even if the poll results are a bit controversial, the outcome is so overwhelming. I guess she won't ignore it.
Biribiri chan, i also saw that version of the 48 poem and was a bit confused.....and i love what you said about Taichi and Suou.....these two definitely have made a special bond, that has been good for both of them. And i think in the end they both will have to admit their love for the game to themselves. Suou definitely loves the poems, the way he fanboys on Mashimaro's reciting shows it all! Suou like Taichi has a dark side, when he said that'Chihaya would never become Queen wasn't nice at all, but he doesn't' deserve what the karuta community thinks about him either. He has his way of playing, it might not be to the liking of the community but it works.....he is the Meijin. And yes Taichi breaking down in tears in front of Harada was also such a revealing moment! Since Taichi was rejected, he has finally truely been concentrating on himself. That's why he avoid Chihaya at'some points, avoids bumping into her at Toudai and the qualifiers, finds that she is in his way, when she opens the window....she still probably makes him regress to his old self, like he said, and he loses concentration.....but looks like he just can't help himself.....
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Post by ayumiakimoto on Jun 25, 2018 2:37:09 GMT -8
I do not think anyone says something that bad against Sou. It is part of discussion to actually point out what we felt was disappointing and just because we are disappointed at one's character doesn't mean that we are bashing. It just means that despite our love for Taichi, doesn't mean that we actually forget the rest of the things for the story.
I am also one of those who got disappointed with Chihaya in this tournament - especially because she was finally got her character development. We saw her standing up on her own, doing things on her own and finally trying to make it own her own without Taichi's help.. but in this tournament we saw her always in distress again and again and having to be cheered on by Taichi again. I mean what's the use of it? We know she's going to win this tournament so what is the need for her to be in distress again? She beat Arata and was able to give Shinobu a good fight.. I thought she will be more confident than that.
I am just giving it another way of Suetsugu's showing us on how it is not easy to suddenly change, even if you change there's a time that you will end up falling for that same you again and again so it's a matter of patience and all but still... I think I was hoping for more - especially because we already knew that Chihaya is going to win this tournament. I wish Suetsugu just saved that distress Chihaya for her tournament with Shinobu.
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Post by amina on Jun 25, 2018 3:52:09 GMT -8
For all the newcomers and guests, I think it would be great to remember that this place is full of friends. It's like when you come to drink tea and chat with your buddies. So yes, people are going to express their opinions, positive and negative, optimistic and pessimistic, sometimes even rants and just let their enjoyment or frustrations out: everything happened in this thread. But what we always remember is respect for each other. It is perfectly okay to disagree with others, but let's not be rude. It is not hard to say "You know I don't think that way/ I have to disagree with you on this/ I think this and that/ why don't you think of it this way" etc. ----- I just wanted to address that subject that Taichi doesn't really want to become the Meijin. I specifically reread the last chapters and I mean: 1. In chapter 192 he asks the boys to be his cardboys and admits that he wants to be the challenger and fight Suou-san for the title, that Suo is the final boss for him, not Arata. 2. In chapter 194 Arata realizes that for Taichi he might be only a stepping stone on the road to Suou, and that's something he didn't even consider before. 3. In chapter 197 Taichi thinks "I still have one more game to play" then corrected himself "No, 2 games to play" So, I think it's pretty clear at this point that he does want to become Meijin... It might be still unusual even for himself because he didn't have that desire previously. But he's overcoming his inferiority complex to Arata and he even tried to pull Arata out of his "good boy" state so that they can stand as equals. In a way, it is strange because usually, it is the superior one who wants to pull the other out and make them realize that they can be equals. Suo and Taichi come to my mind at that. Because Taichi always feared him as a genius Meijin, but Suo kind of pulled him out of that state, treating him as equal. But here it is Taichi that's pulling him out of Arata's superiority complex... Which makes me think that Taichi already sees himself as equal to Arata and understands Arata more than the guy understands himself... I do think Taichi has an upper hand in the matches. Maybe for him right now making Arata admit that Taichi is his equal rival is more important than becoming the challenger. But it does feel like he has becoming the challenger at the back of his mind. Actually, what bothers me is that Taichi might be adjusting his score to Chihaya's -_- I mean, didn't Momo-chan take 5 consecutive cards from Chihaya at the start of the second match? And then in 199 chapter, don't we learn that Arata is leading by 5 cards in their match? After what happened in Taichi's match with Sudo that's too much of a coincidence for me to believe in -_- Maybe the face he makes at Chihaya in ch 200 is like "Pull you sh*t together Chihaya, I want to win this match!" Lol. But I still don't get why he's doing that and I think it is unfair to Chihaya... It puts so much burden on her making his loss her responsibility. Like.. I don't actually hate it when Suos does it. Because for him it is a way to mess with his opponent just like others mess with their opponents too. I understand it as a provocation of sorts like "You're so easy to play that I have to adjust the score to entertain myself. Show me more of what you got or I won't take you seriously". Other players provoke each other as well but usually verbally, so it is not really worse than any other's "dirty tactics". But with Taichi it feels different. It feels like he doesn't want to advance unless Chihaya advances, so he puts the fate of his match on her shoulders and I don't like that...
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Post by amina on Jun 25, 2018 5:51:14 GMT -8
Why I'm disappointed in chihaya's development:
(Disclaimer: I'm not hating on Chihaya, this is literally me saying that she deserves better as the main character)
1) When Taichi went on his journey with Suou, he learned a lot not just about karuta but about himself and found a new way of looking at things. He talked with Suou about talents, accepted that he isn't a karuta genius like his friends but he can compensate by being resourceful, learned to be detached and the art of letting go, etc. All of this reflected not only in his karuta but overall his personality as well, he's changed quite a lot, so it was a real spiritual journey.
When chihaya practiced with Sudo and former Queen, what were the lessons she learned? With Sudo, it seems like the biggest revelation for her was that she too would want to become a teacher and gather a club with members like her friends. But that's not really fresh, because she already decided to be a teacher a long time ago, so it was more like a reminder. With Inokuma it was that she was metaphorically speaking riding a supercar. A fleeting moment of youth and she should take the most out of it to not regret later... I don't know, since Taichi already dropped the bomb of her hearing passing away with time before that, it also wasn't that fresh and deep for me, to be honest. So, I'm having a hard time to call Chihaya's practice sessions as some kind of spiritual journey and I think it was a pity that the chances for her to learn more about herself something new, to get some revelation of sorts that would boost her development, were kinda missed...
2. In the qualifiers. I do understand that it is inevitable for mangaka to create at least some suspense in the matches, even though we already know that Chihaya will most surely win. But even so, she could be developed better in the qualifiers. Taichi, for example, started the qualifiers with the "I don't care, I just came to mess with everyone" and being hated by his first opponent and ended up literally in tears because of how he wanted to reach that place along with Chihaya and Arata, leaving Harada, his last opponent, in awe. This was a development. Even though we pretty much expected him to win the qulifiers, it was still interesting to watch it unfold and the end got me teary.
Chihaya came "underprepared" which could be developed but was forgotten and nothing came out of it. Nothing much in other matches. Then got all tensed with Rion for honetsly, not clear to me reason (just because she lost few cards??). And was pulled out of that only by seeing that Arata became the finalist. Then her final match with Tamaru was simply skipped. Her development was all over the place and ended in the most anticlimatic way possible.
3. Chihaya's matches in the challenger's finals. Here Arata is the best example of a good development. He came sure of himself, confident that "he will be the Meijin", not even giving a single thought that Taichi might actually defeat him. And during the matches he is learning more about himself, the reality of his own feelings towards Taichi, the truth about their relationship, discovers and admits his flaws. Taichi, in turn, practices more of letting go and being detached, learns to not suffocate in the other's presence. Their matches are interesting not only because of their karuta, but how their personalities clash and how they are developing.
I don't know what to say about Chihaya in her matches with Momo-chan, because Momo-chan is developing more than Chihaya. Like, really. She admitted that double fault even though she wanted to win so badly. Apparently, wished Shinobu was watching her (who else would she seek in the crowd?), started the second match all calm and confident despite the previous loss, appreciating Shinobu's gesture, etc. It is more interesting to read how she is progressing, because it is not focused purely on karuta - it is more than that. Chihaya, on the contrary, only demonstrated her karuta in these chapters, catching Suou's attention by her play, did some nice strategic moves and now being all confused because of the reader and relying too much on her speed. Which Harada told her to not rely too much on like ages ago. I can't think of anything else remarkable about her current matches.
That's why I'm disappointed in her development. And it doesn't mean that I'm hating her, I just wish mangaka provided her with more chances to learn something, discover things about herself and her relationship with others. She seems to still be living in the karuta bubble, and it makes me frustrated because even Shinobu is going out of her way to socialize, make friends, accepted her pitiful truth and lingering sadness from the past, tried new things, ventured into unknown territory (taking shinkansen,lol) and so on.... all of that is new and interesting and it unfolded in the limited screen time she has. While about Chihaya mangaka doesn't show much.. yes, she is diligently studying and trying to balance karuta with exams, but is it really all that can be mentioned about her apart from karuta?
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Post by virane on Jun 25, 2018 9:58:47 GMT -8
The beauty of this thread is we can have different opinions regarding the series and can discuss them however we like. Our love for Taichi brings us together, even when we can have different opinions about his character too Amina, beautiful analysis as always! Taichi Meijin route is really appealing My shipper heart still won’t let go... I want it both... I realised I’m in a place that I don’t mind Taichihaya not happening as much if Chiarata doesn’t happen either... I guess I got tired of the back and forth of the triangle. Suetsugu isn’t really willing to show what Chihaya thinks is she... I agree with you, so much more could be done! I always felt like in the end Arata was some sort of karuta machine in the story but even he is getting some development when Chihaya just became that: a karuta machine I’m disappointed. Yes, Shinobu’s development is awesome! I still love Chihaya more but Shinobu is much better as a character imo. I wonder if the mangaka planned the ending and we’re heading towards that or she’s still not sure and thinking about it...
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Post by ayumiakimoto on Jun 25, 2018 11:24:37 GMT -8
I am also starting to feel that Taichi's chances of becoming a Meijin is getting stronger. But then I couldn't help but think that, Suetsugu is also starting to build or show another part of Taichi and Chihaya's connection with each other in this tournament. Arata is starting to have his development too but the karuta thing about him is also getting stronger... I just thought that if she decided not to give Arata the Meijin then wouldn't that be too painful or just too out of...line for him (especially if after all those karuta development, she decided not to give the Meijin title to him and then give him Chihaya instead?)
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Post by chiakimagoto on Jun 25, 2018 21:16:34 GMT -8
Amina chan, eh? You think he might actually been matching his match with Chihaya's?? That would be sort of......badass....i mean, is he actually so strong he can pull that off in front of Arata? Nah....nah....that seems just too hard. On the other hand i would understand his face while holding up that card, sort of like you said: "Chihaya, get your works together cause i'm losing too!", lol.
More seriously: like you pointed out Ayumi, is this the way to show the bond between these 2? If it's like this the whole spiderlilie stuff could be interpreted differently. Chihaya has the flowers all around her, cause she feels she's losing control of the game, and Taichi shows up and snaps her out of it. (Amina chan, i know this irks you, lol)
On the other hand i truely must agree with you guys that her development is disappointing.....i feel that Suetsugu san will start working hard on this....Taichi watching over her again and again.....might be a bit too much. She needs to take things in hand. And maybe she could openly cheer on him, in front of Arata. She already did when she gave him the tatsuki (unconsciously though, but Arata noticed)... if he's in trouble in the match, give him the confidence only she would be able to give him, like Sakurasawa said in the training camp.
Does anyone know btw if the next chap is'schedulded on 1st July? Or is there a hiatus again? Summer is coming up and vacations will probably make us wait a bit.
I'm staying in the greedy league for now....it's much more fun, i can ship and cheer on Taichi 😝. Virane, I also wonder if she already knows how it will end....or is she just going with the flow?
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